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Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING (Read 12073 times)
copbait73
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Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Dec 4th 2006, 6:59pm
 
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Here is the start of a Rapier powered Horton Ho 229 V3 Flying Wing. Wingspan is scaled to 20”. Intended power is a standard L2 of no more than 110mN, L2LT or possibly L1.
 
This model is adapted from a large 70” twin EDF R/C design by Jeffrey Imel. I surfed the web for a plan and wouldn’t you know I found someone just 20 minutes drive away.  
 
While designing in the Rapier L2 power with adjustable mount I also corrected the wing planform and relocated the engine nacelles to better conform to scale.  I’m trying to keep the weight down but frankly I don’t have a projection. This is my first pure wing model. Wing ribs are 1/16” medium at the center and in load areas moving mid span to medium 1/20”. Outboard wing ribs are medium 1/32”.  At the top right is the center rib. Maximum depth is 1". The Rapier motor will be totally enclosed in the Wing.  
 
This shot shows preliminary parts layout. The trailing edge is located with riser tabs which will be cut off after fabrication is completed.
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SteveB
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #1 - Dec 4th 2006, 10:27pm
 
This is such an exciting project Marty. I'm looking forward to seeing the build progress and the flight report should be fascinating... I've never been able to properly figure how these pure wings are stable in yaw without any form of fin... but I've seen RC models of the Ho 229 fly, so whatever the reason... it works Grin (at least on larger RC models)
 
What wing section does the model use?
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #2 - Dec 5th 2006, 9:26am
 
Hi Marty
 
     WOW!!!! I can't wait to see this one. Please keep us updated as you go along. This is a very interesting subject.
 
       Dan
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #3 - Dec 5th 2006, 7:23pm
 
Dan:
 
Thanks, I'm not sure if I'll have a flyable model but the build is already presenting new challenges.  
 
How does FAC feel about clear fin(s) if needed?
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #4 - Dec 5th 2006, 7:50pm
 
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Another build update.  
 
Steve, you asked about the airfoil. You can see it in this shot.  
 
No fuselage but lots of ribs, 26 total.  
 
Two additional ribs were designed to provide walls for the Rapier trough and to fill the gap where EDF motors are installed in the 70" scale.  
 
One major change was to adapt all the parts to tissue cover vs. the sheet balsa covering of the large model.  
 
Curved trailing edge is pre-carved to proper cross section and will be fitted next, along with top spars and leading edge. Assuming all goes well I will incorporate all the small changes into the left side.  
 
Elevons are very thin in this reduced scale so I've decided to make them from very light balsa. They will be adjustable. I measured and inserted a shim under the rear spar so the ribs can be cut free and still maintain desired wing twist.
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SteveB
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #5 - Dec 5th 2006, 10:40pm
 
It looks like an almost flat bottom section with only very slight TE reflex. I'm assuming that there must me quite considerable wing twist.
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #6 - Dec 6th 2006, 5:15am
 
  Hi Marty
 
     F.A.C. does not downgrade for clear tabs. I will check with Lin on using the clear fins as a sub assembly.
 
 
 
       Dan
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #7 - Dec 6th 2006, 5:36am
 
Steve:
 
This x-section carries thoughout. The wing has twist but not what I would call considerable. The instructions for the full-size model advises to set the elevons 1/16" up for starting rig and to pay extreme attention to getting the C/G spot on. That and experience with these tailless models tells me to make them adjustable.  
 
Dan:
 
Thanks for checking. Regardless the FAC ruling I'm building this model for the challenge but it would be nice to fly it in class.  
 
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BeninTucson
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #8 - Dec 6th 2006, 8:34pm
 
Hi Marty . . .  
 
Very nice. The Horton Ho229 is one of my favorites  
and I'll also be interested to see how this one flies.  
I tend to think that with a careful setup of the wing,  
it will fly without much in the way of add-on fins or  
stabs. Go for it!  
 
For the history buffs out there . . . The Ho229V1 was a  
non-powered glider proof-of-concept that was towed  
into the air. Ho229V2 was a jet powered version that  
flew successfully but crashed in early 1945 (killing the  
pilot). The Ho229V3, which is the one that Marty is  
building here, was under construction when Nazi  
Germany surrendered. It had revised engines and  
slightly larger intake and exhaust nacelles. The  
unfinished prototype survived the war and eventually  
found its way to the Garber Restoration Facility,  
which owned by the Smithsonian's National Air &  
Space Museum. I'm not sure if it is on display to the  
general public or not.  
 
Ben in Tucson  
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #9 - Dec 7th 2006, 5:47am
 
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Well I have half the aircraft completed in structural form. Lots of carving and almost no straight lines. Definitely not a beginner project but possible with detail CAD work and laser cutting.  
 
Assembly shown weighs just 5.4gms. While I use 1/16, 1/20 and 1/32 thickness wood attention  to weight could bring  this down by .5gm.  Structure is very rigid and a side profile shows it follows the angles of the original.  
 
I’ve carved additional upturn in the elevon and my tail(?) extension of the center body has pronounced upsweep. Structure is still resting on centerbody assembly risers.
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #10 - Dec 7th 2006, 6:05am
 
Quote from BeninTucson   on Dec 6th 2006, 8:34pm:

For the history buffs out there . . . The Ho229V1 was a
non-powered glider proof-of-concept that was towed
into the air. Ho229V2 was a jet powered version that
flew successfully but crashed in early 1945 (killing the
pilot). The Ho229V3, which is the one that Marty is
building here, was under construction when Nazi
Germany surrendered. It had revised engines and
slightly larger intake and exhaust nacelles. The
unfinished prototype survived the war and eventually
found its way to the Garber Restoration Facility,
which owned by the Smithsonian's National Air &
Space Museum. I'm not sure if it is on display to the
general public or not.

 
Now here goes a bit of speculation on my part:  
 
I think it’s at least conceivable the US government didn’t simply bring this back and place it in storage as always claimed. Sure the actual prototype shown is in storage having never been assemble, even for display. Here the story goes cold………..nothing of interest.
 
Ask yourself, of all the captured technology, would the government ignore a design that was years ahead of it’s time? It had already proven it flew well (the prototype crashed on landing due to an engine failure) and more importantly it showed stealth capability in these test flights. Sure it’s a subsonic design but so are the F-117 and B2 and both are successful front line aircraft.  
 
Is there evidence of the design actually being reproduced and placed in US military service before the F-117 and  B2? In  1947 Kenneth Arnold reported a flight of unusual aircraft moving at a high rate of speed. He described them as crescent shaped in plan form but the press changed his description and called them “flying saucers”.
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #11 - Dec 7th 2006, 9:05am
 
Northrop was also into Flying Wings in a big way, and their prototypes looked promising.  They were somewhat unstable in Yaw so not a good 'bombing platform'.
 
They crashed in mysterious circumstances.  Anyone for a Jetex version?
 
RR
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Onwards and Upwards!

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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #12 - Dec 7th 2006, 10:44am
 
Over the years I've read a lot about wing development and it may be that Air Force bureaucracy was it’s greatest obstacle. Typical of all procurement, aircraft have to meet specifications. For many years all pilots (Air Force Officers) thought a plane must be capable of a stall recovery so the engineers had to design them accordingly.  Of course, I’m sure even back then there were those progressive engineers who said just stay away from stall. This is what was said of early wings by their test pilots,  stay away from stall.  
 
Many modern A/C designs are said to fly due to their computers but in most cases these computers are watching angle of attack and airspeed to set pitch and prevent stall. Of course this capability is now expanded with thrust vectoring  and it’s non-flight type flying attitudes.  
 
My point is the recognized problem with early wings was stall and testing in stall was a requirement for procurement not for operational service.  
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #13 - Dec 7th 2006, 6:49pm
 
Wow, Marty, you really hit a hot button with me on a couple of things. Here's some more info.  
 
My late uncle is the famous (or infamous) Kenneth Arnold and when I was a kid he drew me a picture of his sitings. Imagine the Ho 229 with curved leading edges and trailing edges complete with the tapered center body and you have his sketch. When he was on the ground later he was describing to a reporter the strange movements that the objects exhibited while flying. He described them as having a twitchy or skipping movement unlike any flying machine of the time. He said the movements were much like a saucer that you would skip across the water, bouncing from one edge to the other. The reporter shortened that down to "flying saucer". I remember my uncle saying how the movement of the machines would be very uncomfortable for a flight crew and his theory was they were not machines but some kind of living space animals or robots (this was long before RPVs!). He never changed his story in any detail for the rest of his life.
 
Fast forward to a few years ago and I had the privilege to hear a talk by retired Gen Bob Cardenas, who was famous for dropping Chuck Yeager but was also a heavy iron test pilot and flew the XB-35 and 49. He devoted a goodly section of his talk to the Northrop wings and found them a fascinating flying machine but very unpleasant from a pilot's standpoint. The stalls were frightening (this is from a test pilot) and the aircraft wanted to tumble about an axis from wing tip to wing tip. In level flight, when the rudder pedal was stomped on and then the feet placed on the floor, the wing would yaw back and forth, never damping out and never increasing and never stopping. It was neutrally stable in yaw. In looking at the heavy bombers all pilots were used to at that time and where they formed their basis of what a "good" aircraft was ( B-17, B-29, B-32) the Northrop wings were as alien as men from mars.
 
Finally, I had a friend who worked on the steath bomber and, according to the talk that circulated around Northrup, when the elder Jack Northrup was finally shown a model of the then-secret bomber he was delighted that his theories were finally proven true. He refused to acknowledge that the shape was detirmined almost exactly by a diagram of radar reflectivity and not by aerodynamics.  
 
I don't think flying wings will ever lose their appeal. I built a glider of the YB-49 and it was one of the coolest models I ever flew.
 
Oops, I think I got a little off topic.
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BeninTucson
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #14 - Dec 7th 2006, 7:37pm
 
Hi Marty . . .  
 
I'm rather fascinated by late 1940's UFO sightings (this  
could end up wandering way off topic) and I certainly  
don't think all of them can be explained away as "swamp  
gas" or weather balloons. But I tend to doubt that there  
was a covert fleet of Ho229s built and flown by the U.S.  
Army Air Force around the Cascade Mountains in late June  
of 1947.  
 
Maybe (quite seriously) it was something akin to these  
images. Here is Kenneth Arnold shown with an artist  
rendering of what he witnessed . . .  
 
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Doubters might want to read Stanton Friedman's "Crash  
at Corona" for a very eye opening appraisal of what  
was happening in the new Mexican desert a month later.  
 
The Testors plastic kit of the Roswell spaceship is  
supposed to be a fairly accurate rendering from eye  
witness accounts . . .  
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Sorry . . . I don't mean to hog up this thread with UFO  
speculation. If we want to continue in that vein, perhaps  
starting a new thread in the "News" folder would be a  
good idea.  
 
Back to "Earth-made" flying wings  Wink . . . as Roger  
mentioned, Jack Northop certainly was on par with the  
Horton brothers and his MX-324 XP-79B, X-4 and  YB-49  
designs testify to that.  Also . . . the deHavilland dH 108  
is from the same general time period. The thing that sets  
the Horton wings apart from the competion was the lack  
of vertical fins  . . . and, of course, the  German made jet  
and rocket powerplants of 1944-45 were the best to be  
had.  
 
Ben in Tucson  
 
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #15 - Dec 8th 2006, 2:25am
 
'and, of course, the  German made jet  and rocket powerplants of 1944-45 were the best to be had.'
 
I think there may be a few engineers from Power Jets, Rolls Royce and Metrovick that dispute that claim, but that's as may be.
 
There are also the interesting General Aircraft flying wings from that period, that were undoubtedly an attempt to learn more about some of the work that had been done by the likes of B&V and Horten.  They were by all accounts terrifying to fly and not a little dangerous.  An interesting subject for flying models nonetheless.  Some were gliders, can't remember if there were any powered ones?
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #16 - Dec 8th 2006, 7:56pm
 
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The first shot is my attempt to show the dihedral/sweep and twist. Wing tips are twisted to -5 to 6 degrees. The center body tail is long and sweeps up at 6 degrees also.  
 
The second shot shows the relative size to the F7U Cutlass.  
 
Basic structure is completed. Weight is a scant 10.9gms.  
 
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David_Lofthouse
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #17 - Dec 9th 2006, 3:17pm
 
What an awesome and menacing shadow that thing will cast from the sky.  Very cool looking Marty.  And very light.
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #18 - Dec 10th 2006, 4:10am
 
Marty, the more I see of this model the more I have to urge to do one myself... but I think I'll let you act a flight trimming guinea pig first  Wink (I still have an uneasy feeling about yaw stability)
I have in mind a version with two L2 motors mounted in their 'scale' positions. Having read reports of the crash of the V2 aircraft it would appear that yaw control limitations combined with asynchronous thrust caused by the failure of one motor was the demise of the full size aircraft. This probably should put me off a twin engine version... but I like a challenge Roll Eyes Judging by the weight yours is standing at a twin motor version could be huge Grin
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #19 - Dec 14th 2006, 10:35am
 

steve,
After you pulled off the X craft i dont think there is a challege to big for you.
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SteveB
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #20 - Dec 30th 2006, 1:21am
 
Any more progress on the Horton Marty?
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #21 - Dec 30th 2006, 7:31am
 
Steve:
 
No, the project is as I left it on the posting. I just returned from a long trip to Houston, TX, celebrating my son's wedding and Christmas.  
 
I'm back now and will probably begin final detailing and covering soon.    
 
Weather permitting I'll be cat lanching it in a week or two.
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #22 - Jan 22nd 2007, 3:17pm
 
I finally picked up this project again. The modifications for the trough are completed, the elevons hinged and I'm starting on the covering.  
Weather is still bad but it should be ready to conduct low energy cat launches when I get a calm, dry day.
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Marty Richey
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #23 - Jan 24th 2007, 6:11pm
 
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More progress to report on the Ho229V3 FLYING WING.  
 
Covering is completed. The bottom covering was no big deal but as I laid the top sheet on the framework it became apparent the top covering was going to be very difficult. In the end I covered it full wet, starting mid span and working toward each end. The outboard panel was no biggie but moving toward the center was a real challenge. There are no wrinkles but this required a lot of stretching as the center body spread out and humped up.  
 
Basic airframe weight as shown  is 16.4 gms. at 20 “ wingspan.  The overhead shot shows a new finding  for me. This 5.7gm. lump of clay is needed to obtain the correct balance with a spent L2 casing. Total weight as I take it to cat launch will be 22.1gms. Final model with canopy, engine nacelles, finish color and trough liner will approach 27 gms, motor mount empty. The second shot shows the bare trough which has moderate impinging.  
 
WINGs may have light airframe construction but the configuration requires consolidating  all your heavy components in a relativity small area. In the case of the single Rapier powered model this is difficult so it will carry what I consider excessive dead weight.
 
Assuming I accomplish a flying model this configuration is better suited to twin EDF units with associated twin LiPo batteries and controller in the extreme nose . This power system hardware will consolidate productive weight where it's needed most for an efficient model.    
 
 
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Marty Richey
Chesterfield, IN, 20 minutes from AMA headquarters and the largest FF field one could hope for.
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SteveB
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #24 - Jan 24th 2007, 10:35pm
 
Great work as usual Marty. Despite the nose weight the projected all up weight still looks good and the wing loading will be extremely low.
 
I'm very much looking forward to the test flight findings....Good Luck!
 
Steve
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #25 - Jan 25th 2007, 10:38am
 
Oh, a failed to mention. If you look at the shot of the bottom there is balsa filling on either side of the trough. This filling allows addition of one or two clear fins if directional instability is found during cat launch trimming.  
 
We have snow on the ground right now so I'm not sure when that will happen.  
 
Now, what to build...........
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Marty Richey
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #26 - Dec 23rd 2008, 6:19pm
 
Id like to try this project. Ive made many free flight catapult models of this plane.  Using a spring loaded elevator i got some pretty good flight times. For mine i used two very small vertical clear plastic surfaces on the upper rear edge of wing. Was an amazing glider. Im looking for stick and tissue plans for one. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction. Cheers. L
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copbait73
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Re: Building the Horton Ho 229 V3 FLYING WING
Reply #27 - Dec 24th 2008, 4:50am
 
Thanks for contacting me. Sorry I can't help you with plans. My model was inspired by plans for a 54" wingspan twin ducted fan R/C model. The owner of the plans is very protective of his design and I promised him I would not make copies of any size.  
 
I gave this model away to a local guy who followed this build and wanted to pursue it further. I was evaluating this configuration for low wing loading. It comes out the excessive weight added to the nose to bring the C/G in negates the potential benefits. For an R/C or FF ducted fan model the electronics and batteries can be packaged to provide this necessary ballast and the configuration becomes more acceptable
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